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Payndar Circusdorf
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Post by Payndar Circusdorf »

Corporations with more money tend to have more employees. Either way, cuts are creating jobs. I believe we are barking up different sides of the same proverbial tree. The original point was that the government can't affect the job market. We can agree that it can?
Sure. I was just clarifying your statement upthread that said cutting taxes raises demand by raising income. That's true only in some cases.

But there's no question that cutting taxes can have a stimulant effect if targeted correctly.
The US Pharmaceutical industry (at least a few years ago) enjoyed substantial tax breaks. While not a direct subsidy, the effect is similar.
I can see the logic that not charging them money is the same as giving it to them. Any idea what tax breaks they got over every other business?
They benefit from lower taxation rates. But the reason that has a similar effect as a subsidy is that pharms in -other nations- may not have similarly targeted tax relief.
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Post by Liltyger »

Payndar Circusdorf wrote: That "Government protection" is called a patent, and without it, the entire system isn't "tweaked." it's removed.

Fuel cell technology is not remotely comparable to the hybrids.

We are spending money on fuel cell tech not for cars but for other applications, like laptop batteries and portable power supply for soldiers in the field.
Who said anything about removing patents? I don't have a solution but there is a flaw in the current system that leaves America holding the bill for drug R&D, it needs to be researched beucase there is a problem with helathcare costs in this country and we need other solutions than a National Heathcare System.

The same motivation that keeps every one of the thousands of Prius's presold as it comes off the assembly line certainly applies to fuel cell cars.

And for that last bit, I point you to whitehouse.gov:

Key Initiatives in the President's State of the Union Message

President Bush announced a $1.2 billion hydrogen fuel initiative to reverse America's growing dependence on foreign oil by developing the technology for commercially viable hydrogen-powered fuel cells to power cars, trucks, homes and businesses with no pollution or greenhouse gases. The hydrogen fuel initiative will include $720 million in new funding over the next five years to develop the technologies and infrastructure to produce, store, and distribute hydrogen for use in fuel cell vehicles and electricity generation. Combined with the FreedomCAR (Cooperative Automotive Research) initiative, President Bush is proposing a total of $1.7 billion over the next five years to develop hydrogen-powered fuel cells, hydrogen infrastructure and advanced automotive technologies.
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Payndar Circusdorf
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Post by Payndar Circusdorf »

Who said anything about removing patents? I don't have a solution but there is a flaw in the current system that leaves America holding the bill for drug R&D, it needs to be researched beucase there is a problem with helathcare costs in this country and we need other solutions than a National Heathcare System.
The problem with healthcare costs is that nobody wants to die, and nobody wants to pay alot to not die.

Increase the supply of doctors and hospitals, and costs will drop. It's that simple. Until then you are stuck with $80 trips to the doctor for him to tell you that you have fucking Chicken Pox.

"America" is not holding the bill for anything. Other nations also pay through the nose, but the costs are hidden due to the nationalized subsidies.

I'm not sure how to make this any clearer: There is no way you are going to make drugs cheaper with a government program. You will either pay the pharmacist, or pay the IRS. Take your pick. I prefer to pay the pharmacist, as at least then I am paying for my own medications and not the meds for other people.

The same motivation that keeps every one of the thousands of Prius's presold as it comes off the assembly line certainly applies to fuel cell cars.
Prius's actually have value. Fuel cell cars will not for a very long time. By very I mean grandkids.
Key Initiatives in the President's State of the Union Message

President Bush announced a $1.2 billion hydrogen fuel initiative to reverse America's growing dependence on foreign oil by developing the technology for commercially viable hydrogen-powered fuel cells to power cars, trucks, homes and businesses with no pollution or greenhouse gases.
This is so sad it's laughable, and I snorted at it when he said it during the speech.

Fuel cells are not pollution free. Oh, sure, when you burn the hydrogen in the cell, the end result is magically water! And water is clean!

But whatever you do, do not ask how the hydrogen gets into the cells, or what voluminous reserves of hydrocarbons (that means fossil fuels) get burned in the process.
The hydrogen fuel initiative will include $720 million in new funding over the next five years to develop the technologies and infrastructure to produce, store, and distribute hydrogen for use in fuel cell vehicles and electricity generation. Combined with the FreedomCAR (Cooperative Automotive Research) initiative, President Bush is proposing a total of $1.7 billion over the next five years to develop hydrogen-powered fuel cells, hydrogen infrastructure and advanced automotive technologies.
Right right.

They can research it over the next 5 years all they want, and they will produce some damn fine laptop batteries. Every expert I've heard or read on this subject (and that includes the oft-raving oil-haters on NPR) say fuel cells will be impractical for cars for at least 25 years.

The people who benefit from this will not be people who want fuel-cell cars. It's people who use cellphones and soldiers with HUDs in their helmets.
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Post by Kabol »

Ford is claiming 36 MPG for their SUV. That may be 4 cyl, but a hybrid 4 cyl has the same power as a gas V6.
And how much it cost? The ONLY reason I would switch to a hybrid is if it saved me money.

The Honda Civic Hybrid MSRPs at $19650, gets 46/51 MPG (city/hwy), and has 85 HP.

The comparable model normal Honda Civic MSRPs at $15360, gets 32/38 MPG, and has 115 HP.

Now lets assume the Hybrid has the same long life of a normal Civic and can last for 120,000 miles. We will also use the city mpg which favors the hybrid (14 mpg spread).

Hybrid: 120,000 / 46 MPG = 2609 gallons
Normal: 120,000 / 32 MPG = 3750 gallons

So I save 1141 gallons of gas... at $2 a gallon is $2282.00

I can pay $4290 to save $2282?


edit:

Oh and notice the 35% increase in HP for the gas engine.
Last edited by Kabol on Wed Jun 02, 2004 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Payndar Circusdorf
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Post by Payndar Circusdorf »

Yes, but basically the higher price is a premium to burn less fuel (and thereby protect the environment), not a savings in the pocketbook.

And your 120K miles is way low. I'd be pissed if my car doesnt make it to 200,000.

Edit: I do realize that saving the environment is not a factor in Kabol.ShopForCar().
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Kabol
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Post by Kabol »

It is all linear, so increasing the mileage by a factor of 1.67 increases the amount saved in gas by 1.67 is $3803.

If you want to play hardball by assuming the hybrid can actually live as long as the Civic...

Remember that you are paying $4290 now (more if you take out a loan) to save $3803 after you have run the car 200,000 miles (10 years).
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Post by Subatai »

This is the worst episode of Crossfire ever.
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Payndar Circusdorf
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Post by Payndar Circusdorf »

Crossfire is the worst show ever. Everytime I try to watch it I have to mute it because it's just yelling. It's like reading a Fark forum with sound.

At least here we value opposing opinions.
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Kabol
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Post by Kabol »

I don't have a solution but there is a flaw in the current system that leaves America holding the bill for drug R&D, it needs to be researched beucase there is a problem with helathcare costs in this country and we need other solutions than a National Heathcare System.
Who else could hold the bill? The drug companies? They will go the way of the tabacco companies (non-US markets).
You will either pay the pharmacist, or pay the IRS. Take your pick. I prefer to pay the pharmacist, as at least then I am paying for my own medications and not the meds for other people.
Actually you pay for both. Part of the money you would have gotten as salary instead goes to "benefits". Out of the money you do get as salary, another part goes to taxes which in turn funds programs like Medicare/Medicaid.

When your parents retire, I can guarantee you will hear all about how much they pay for medical insurance. I believe it is about $600/month right now plus a deductible every time they fill one of their 9 prescriptions.

Maybe your parents have no loans/mortgages and can afford that no problem with what they saved up. Or maybe they need help from the government.
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Post by Kabol »

Just FYI, this just came across Yahoo.

British gas prices push past $5.79 a gallon



Blimey!
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Payndar Circusdorf
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Post by Payndar Circusdorf »

Now it's my turn for math.

British Gas prices are 5.79 a gallon.
US prices are about 2.10.

British gas tax is 75% of the price, while US gas tax (average state and federal) is 42%. So:

British = 5.79 * .25 = 1.45

US = 2.10 * .58 = 1.22

Gas would be plenty cheap if they cut the fucking taxes on it.
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Post by Liltyger »

on the hybrids, $2000 tax break cuts some of the cost difference, but you pretty much have no chance of it lasting more than 120,000. The batteries have to be replaced and that is much too expensive to do on a car that's got 120,000 miles on it. The lower horse power you see is delibrate to further increase the gas mileage. If you use the electric motor w/ a more normal setup it's power is added to the gas motor. Right now I think they add about 25hp. To get the full gas savings you really have to think about and change the way you drive. For now people aren't buying them for cost savings (not those that can do math), but we're getting there.
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Payndar Circusdorf
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Post by Payndar Circusdorf »

There's no way I will ever willingly buy a car with a life expectancy of 120,000 miles.

But, for those who can afford to buy hybrids every few years, go for it.
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